Juuust about had it.......

Jeff Peterson · Post by **Jeff Peterson** » 18 Mar 2002 6:56 pm

See ya'.[This message was edited by Jeff Peterson on 20 March 2002 at 05:36 AM.]

Dave Van Allen · Post by **Dave Van Allen** » 18 Mar 2002 7:23 pm

thanks Jeff! Words to live by, like:

Live and let live.

and

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

and

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

and

Shut up and play yer guitar

Jerry Hedge · Post by **Jerry Hedge** » 18 Mar 2002 7:29 pm

Jeff,AMEN!!! Think about the many people that have knocked the players for just making a living. I'm sure that those who work a day job don't tell the boss how to run the company!!! Now,I don't like the way most Country Radio sounds today BUT it isn't the fault of the musicians. You are just doing your job. In fact instead of knocking the guys in your position we SHOULD BE CONGRATULATING YOU!!! Guys like you had the gonads to go to Nashville and try to make a living with this crazy instrument. How many of us would be this brave and take the chance of either making it as a road musician or if you were LUCKY enough a studio musician?

Ron Whitworth · Post by **Ron Whitworth** » 18 Mar 2002 7:55 pm

BRAVO JEFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You sure said a mouthfull there that (imho) needs to be said here..We are growing by leaps & bounds on this Forum every day but it seems to me a LOT of the full time pro's are leaving in bunches too..I think they just get tired of arguing & having to defend their way of making a living every time they come on here..We ALL have our "favorite" brand or style of music..I would surely think that we would have learned by now you just can't force that on anybody else.I think everyone should PLEASE take a minute & re-read Jeff's post at the top here..He has said everything that needs to be said & maybe we can all start enjoying this GREAT steel forum more if we would all just take a minute before we fly off the handle & start typing(myself included too)..Thanks Ron

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 18 Mar 2002 7:56 pm

Hey Jeff,
Well said for sure! I'm an old 62 year old geezer who quit playing full time about 16 years ago when I moved from LA to Virginia. I love the old stuff without question as Ralph Mooney is my personal hero but, I love the new stuff too! I'm glad I had my career on the west coast where we were always a little more tolerant of other types of music than back here. We always incorporated rock, bluegrass, swing, jazz, or anything else we liked into what we were doing. I've seen some fine young players on the Opry and other shows and videos who are great players. It seems that a lot of those on the Forum want the music to stay the way it was and not evolve like all other types of music did. Listen to Roy Acuff in 1940, that was state of the art country music then. Even Ernest Tubb's music evolved from the 40's till the end of his career. It got a whole lot more polished and up to date. I do however miss the TNN version of the Opry, not because the music was different but because they didn't have all the interviews and such. You just saw the Opry as it was and didn't miss any of the music. I wish that CMT would show a whole hour of the complete show. In closing, I think that acts like Brooks & Dunn, Ol' Garth, Ricochet, Trisha Yearwood, or any of 'em as as legitimate as anything in country music's past. I even liked Gram Parsons, Poco, The Flying Burrito Bros. and acts like that.

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney tuning.

John Macy · Post by **John Macy** » 18 Mar 2002 9:20 pm

Dang it Jeff, I told you to lay off those hot wings...

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 18 Mar 2002 9:27 pm

I am amazed at how forthcoming guys on the forum are about things they have no direct experience of.

I figure you gotta gig or you don't gotta gig. The rest is just sillyness.

Bob

JB Arnold · Post by **JB Arnold** » 18 Mar 2002 9:52 pm

Amen.

JB\

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Fulawka D-10 9&5
"All in all, looking back, I'd have to say the best advice anyone ever gave me was 'Hands Up, Don't Move!"
www.johnbarnold.com/pedalsteel
www.buddycage.net

chas smith R.I.P. · Post by **chas smith R.I.P.** » 18 Mar 2002 10:08 pm

I love and respect the "old", I support and play the "new". I don't see them as being mutually exclusive, it's music.

Del Rangel · Post by **Del Rangel** » 18 Mar 2002 10:14 pm

Dave Van Allen is right. Live and let live and never assume things are coming to an end. I have not been around as long as many of you, but in my short lifetime there have been several transitions in all genres of music, and C&W is no exception. Some of you remember when the "Nashville Sound" of the 1950s caused a stir. My first rememberances of Country was listening to music out of Bakersfield as a kid and my father laughed about how guys like Buck Owens and Merle Haggard flipped some folks out in the 1960s. By the 1970s and 1980s, Country had a rebellious streak appear in full bloom with Willie, Waylon, Hank Jr. and the likes of David Allen Coe. Everyone was sure that "real" country was dead as these Rocker "wannabes" were killing it--or so the story went. By the 1980s and 1990s many started to complain about the lifestyle in Nashville and in Country music and some Like Waylon Jennings even sang about "Did Ole Hank really do it this way." Again, some spoke of the death of country, but it continued. More recently, while many people in corporate Nashville, New York, and LA ignored American culture in the form of traditional Country music a couple of whacked-out directors re-cast Homer's Odyssey to the musical backdrop of some of the best artists this country can offer, and the executives that were paying attention ended up scoring big with the O' Brother Were Art Thou soundtrack. The fact is a lot of people are still listening to country music, and while the corporate stranglehold needs to be loosened, time usually does that anyway. The corporations biggest problem is that they are like the old baronial class--willing to wipe one another out for a few bucks and a promise. New people are coming up and will figure things out. For instance where I teach history, the college paper now regularly reviews Country as well as Other types of CD releases. Five years ago this was not the case. Some that I have seen in the recent past have included artists like Alison Krauss and Kasey Chambers. Maybe some of you don't like the "new" music, or the new corporate format, but country is alive and well and by all accounts growing in popularity again. So hang on, because the train is moving and it won't stop for any of us mere mortals.

LARRY COLE · Post by **LARRY COLE** » 18 Mar 2002 10:20 pm

Jeff, am I missing something? What does the BREAKING EVEN have to do with blasting the Opry?

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LC. WILLIAMS U12, SHO-BUD PRO1,CARVIN TL60

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 19 Mar 2002 4:30 am

Jeff, well written , but I to am a little confused. The Opry deal is a conversation about " Not enough music" being shown on the TV portion of the show. I'm not certain I read anywhere where the players are being
criticized. As far as breaking even, I broke even on my very fist gig when I was 14, no amount of money could ever replace that or any of the gigs I have played thru the last 38 years. I think I'm pretty much like most here, I earn a living at my day gig and keep my sanity ( edge) by playing with the band, whether it's for money of not !

TP

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 19 Mar 2002 5:45 am

I'm reminded of a local musician, a singer from Macon, GA who went up to the Big City and was going to do it his way. I never heard of him again. You do have to live and let live.

I always thought that was a given !!

Regards, Paul

bob drawbaugh · Post by **bob drawbaugh** » 19 Mar 2002 6:05 am

Jeff, you as a pro may not have much to say about the music industry. But, you and I as consumers should have a lot to say about it. We should vote every chance we get, with or money,phone ,the forum,letters. So what you see as bashing, I may see as consumer watching. JMHO.

Bill Simmons · Post by **Bill Simmons** » 19 Mar 2002 7:43 am

I'm like Tony Prior in that I'm confused about such an intense response from Jeff regarding the attack on the younger players etc. My interpretation of what players have been expressing is their concern about the direction of the Opry, the demise of TNN (Country Music)and/or the general questions and comments about the direction of country music in general and not an attack on the creative, younger players. I believe the bottom line is everyone expressing their thoughts because they care and love the steel guitar. It is voiced in a concern as consumers as well as a musicians. Over the past few years, it has been apparent that even the people at the top of the country music business have been struggling with the direction of the Opry and country music.

Maybe there was another thread where someone was bashing the musicians etc, especially the younger players that I missed. If that is so, then I would understand Jeff's response.

However, whether one makes a living as a 'Pro' or is simply a 'bedroom picker', I believe everyone is on the same page in that they love the steel guitar and appreciate the diversity of the styles of music involving the steel. I have a number of 'pro' musicians (steel players)in Nashville and they haved voiced their concern about the future of country music/Opry and the direction of where those in power will take it. The seasoned session players that I know appreciate the talented younger players and are pretty open to helping them in any way. Everyone knows that life is about change and that you must anticipate it and adapt with it.

By the way, the Ft Worth newspaper had an interesting interview article this past weekend about the English gentleman in charge of Gaylord. It sounded like they 'listened' to the many voices who expressed their concern, especially about the WSM station format etc, and even tho they lost some big money,it appears they believe in WSM and the Opry for the future. He aluded to their 'learning' as well.

Thanks Bob for allowing the forum to be a vehicle to learn, grow, build new friends, express our thoughts etc. By the way, there a number of the "pro" friends, not only in Nashville, but in LA and other cities who I know that read the forum and love it!

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 19 Mar 2002 8:05 am

Jeff P.,
A key theme in you post seems to be this idea about the people on the Forum getting into arguments about the past/present/future of country music, the brands of steel guitar that are played, and other things as well. And you also say that we are keeping many pros off of the Forum because of this propensity to argue and criticize. I think that the nature of any forum is to draw people of like interests who also tend to have strong opinions and want them to be heard. It's the nature of the beast, so to speak. And while we would want all the pros to be taking part in this, and would in fact relish having conversations with them, I just don't think that it's possible to avoid debate and even arguments. Even though many Forumites will back off when a pro makes a point, there are plenty of others who enjoy "mixing it up" with them, as well as everyone else. I think the bottom line is that once you are on the Forum, the distinction between professionals versus the "weekend warriors" is not considered as significant as it would be, say, at a steel guitar convention. Once we're all talking, everyone's going to want to say what they think, and everyone's going to feel that they are right, and some opinions will go against the grain of the pros, as they go against the grain of plenty of other players. And those pros that don't like that will get annoyed, but those that DO like it, will have fun being part of it. And to tell you the truth, while we certainly miss not having more pros on the Forum, THEY are missing out on some great things. There are many real smart insights, and some hysterically funny stuff, and they could be having a blast with the rest of us, arguments and all.

Buddy Emmons · Post by **Buddy Emmons** » 19 Mar 2002 8:08 am

All I gathered from Gary's post was that he hates what's going on in an institution he loves. Guess what Gary? Your opinion parallels a four-decade angst we steel players in Nashville had when a camera would pan to a fiddle during a steel solo; so don't feel like the Lone Ranger. I don't give a damn if people disagree with my opinion or don't like something I do. I care about the right to express an opinion and the right to disagree. And personally, I don't give a rat's rear end if the Opry went under tomorrow, but I would care for the musicians and fans I know that would be affected by it. The ironic part of Dave Van Allen's adages is that they apply to either side. If you live long enough, you'll discover that right and wrong is only decided by majority rule. In this case, it's b0b, and until he steps in, I say let the good times roll.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 19 Mar 2002 8:30 am

Frank Estes · Post by **Frank Estes** » 19 Mar 2002 8:30 am

I considered responding to each line, but I do not have the time.

In sum, I guess Jeff and some others feel that if one is not a pro, then one does not have the right to an opinion and especially a disagreeable one. :O

Sure, some of the comments can be a little insensitive and I doubt it is always intentional (just the nature of writing/education/semantics), but if you compare the civility here with other Net boards, this one is a Sunday School picnic.

As for pro participation, I think they are too busy and you can only rehash topics like right-hand technique, who played on what album, what equipment did so-and-so use, etc. only so much. There is no reason to expect free online course material when some pros count on the revenue for selling their courses.

When one of the top pros post here, we often engage in what some call "leg-humping." I find that characterization humorous, but is it not better to "give people flowers" while they are living instead of eulogies after that one is gone? I think that it is so cool how Ernie has a place on the Buddy Emmons Web Site to let other great players give some "flowers" to Buddy with their words of true feeling while he is alive. Give honor to whom honor is due!

I have to agree with Buddy's brilliant take on today's country: http://www.buddyemmons.com/_board/00000068.htm

As for trying to understand steel players, I think Tom Bradshaw put it best in the 1975 Guitarist magazine that was reprinted in Winnie Winston's "Pedal Steel Guitar" instruction book: (I can't remember it word for word, but...) "Steel players are pushy, never satisfied...and their wives no they are second."

Just think about what type of person it really takes to "gladly" pack and haul all that equipment, set it up and play in front of people and then tear it all down and take it home to practice...I guess we really are NUTS!!!

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Frank Estes - The Country Jazz Mullen

Dave Van Allen · Post by **Dave Van Allen** » 19 Mar 2002 8:33 am

The ironic part of Dave Van Allen's adages is that they apply to either side

exactly!!

except for maybe the "shut up and play yer guitar"...

thanks for clarifying my point Buddy, better than I did.

Free speech is free speech and we can be damn glad we have it.
My point was not to hinder such.

Music is the thing.And like the much debated "tone"- it's subjective.

Live it, or live with it....

blah blah blah

BobG · Post by **BobG** » 19 Mar 2002 8:58 am

Jeff, I'm at a total loss here. Can you please tell me what you found so offensive
about my "breaking even" thread?

Steve Allison · Post by **Steve Allison** » 19 Mar 2002 9:05 am

Yep!!!!!!!!!
Music is just like Bar-B-Que Sauce!

Everybody has there own idea of what it should taste like. There will always be groups of people that will hang out with others that like there kind of sauce!

The things that make me mad are people that only do things for money with no appreciation for learning the history and sacrifices behind what they are doing.

And to all of us older folks who will not go out and purchase the types of music that we enjoy! It is still being made by alot of artists. They are not dead yet! There are some entertainers in the business who have consistently made wonderfull "country music",
that were absolute jerks to there fellow man and band members. It is our job to share our experiences with people who are not, but think they are, in the "Know".

It's a big wheel and it will roll back around.

Rick Garrett · Post by **Rick Garrett** » 19 Mar 2002 9:12 am

Leg Humping? Let the good times roll?

This has all the makings of a world class thread. hahaha Oh yeah wheres my coffee

Rick Garrett[This message was edited by Rick GM on 19 March 2002 at 09:14 AM.]

Mike Weirauch · Post by **Mike Weirauch** » 19 Mar 2002 9:28 am

Unless I missed it, I don't ever recall anyone knocking any steel player for playing a particular bad ride on a song. Now a performer that can't sing or doesn't sing country on a totally country stage? Yeah, that's a different story. I usually offer an opinion on threads of that nature and just because I'm always right doesn't make me a bad person!

Naw, it took a lot more than that to make me bad! From what I have read, I think most everyone here is supportive of those who are playing with a big named act and should be. I don't play out often, only when my son has a date, has to work or just doesn't want to which happens maybe once every 6 weeks or so. If any of the road players want to come and hear me play, I can guarentee they will walk away laughing their ass off but at the end of the evening, I've probably had more fun than anyone there. With a few drinks, I get to playing better. With a few more drinks, hell I can damn near sound like Buddy Emmons. A couple more drinks after that and I can dance like Shania Twain! Now, can anyone top that?

As for toys vs computers, I'm in pretty fair shape in both departments. Jeff, you know you like my toys, or at least 3 of them!

After saying all of that, I'm going to go look for someone or something to disagree with. Who wants to be first?

[This message was edited by Mike Weirauch on 19 March 2002 at 09:38 AM.]

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 19 Mar 2002 10:17 am

...."and then controversy and discussion of points can draw them back"......did I see Carl plop a smiley face in there some where???? WELCOME BACK C.
Ricky